United Internet AG (UDIRF) Q2 2024 Earnings Call Transcript

United Internet AG (OTCPK:UDIRF) Q2 2024 Earnings Conference Call August 8, 2024 8:30 AM ET

Company Participants

Dominic Grossmann – IR
Ralph Dommermuth – CEO
Ralf Hartings – CFO

Conference Call Participants

Karsten Oblinger – DZ Bank
Volker Glaser – MPPM
Camilio Azzouz – Amber Capital

Dominic Grossmann

Ladies and gentlemen, dear guests, welcome to the Analyst and Investor Conference of United Internet. It’s my pleasure to welcome you here on site at the Sofitel in Frankfurt, and of course, I’d also like to extend a warm welcome to our guests on the webcast.

I’d like to present today’s agenda to you. First of all, Ralph Dommermuth will present the company development of the first half year to you and give you an outlook on the second half of the year. Afterwards, Ralf Hartings will present the financial figures to you in detail. After our presentation, you will, as always, have the opportunity to raise questions during a Q&A session.

That would be it from me. And now I’d like to hand over to Mr. Dommermuth. The floor is yours.

Ralph Dommermuth

Thank you, Mr. Grossmann. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. Hello. Welcome to our United Internet analyst conference on the first half of the year. I will present the company development to you and give you an outlook on the rest of the year. Afterwards, my colleague Mr. Hartings will present the financial results of the first half year to you.

All right. Many of you know our company. We differentiate between Internet access and applications, and we divide both into customer or consumer access and applications and business access and applications. Our assets are 11,000 employees, a network in Germany with a length of 64,500 kilometers of fiber network, a mobile network and more than 100,000 servers in Europe and the U.S.

We sell our products through a variety of different brands. Our main brand or primary brand is 1&1. We also have many discount brands coming from Drillisch. In business access, so our B2B business, we have 1&1 Versatel.

Applications, we sell them through GMX, WEB.DE, mail.com, and in business, we have IONOS, our primary brand, and a couple of sub-brands that we gained through purchases throughout years. We are also partnering and have some minority shareholdings.

Let’s start with our consumer and business access in the first half of the year. We have 3.99 million broadband customers, mainly VDSL and fiber glass, complete packages including voice and TV. They are sold or produced via 1&1 Versatel using the transport network. The last mile usually comes through Deutsche Telekom or City Carrier.

In mobile networks, we have 12.36 million mobile customers. We have the first Open RAN in Europe and we’re currently in the process of migrating existing customers that used to be in wholesale contracts.

Overall, in the first half of the year, we were able to gain 90,000 new customers, 110,000 new mobile Internet contracts, and we had a small decline of 20,000 customers in our broadband lines in the first half of the year.

Revenue increased by 1.1%. What’s specifically important is our service revenue growth of 3.8%. That’s where we make our money because it’s a strong margin. Other revenues are declining. Those are revenues that we do especially through smartphones that we give out to our customers often for zero euros, and that are done — then being repaid through usage of our contracts. There was a regulatory effect through our mobile termination fees that reduced our revenue. If we deducted this, our revenue — service revenue would be at 4.4% growth.

EBITDA in consumer access declined by 7.2% to €326.6 million. This includes the expenses for the expansion of the mobile network, which amounted to €111 million, and the margin is at 16.2%. Consumer network is in 1&1, is an AG, so a listed company that is divided into two sub-segments, operating business. So the Internet access. Here we had an increase of 11.4% EBITDA to €437.6 million, and we were able to increase our EBITDA margin to 21.7%. I think this is a strong figure that is way above the usual figures in the German telecommunications market.

The second segment in 1&1 is the 1&1 Mobile Network, which is currently being constructed and expanded. Here we invested a lot. We have a large team, but of course in the beginning, we don’t have a lot of usage. Therefore, we have a loss of €111 million startup costs. There are €14.3 million out-of-period expenses that have reached us from previous years.

Business access, those are addressed by 1&1 Versatel, also German authorities. Versatel operates a large fiber optic network that reaches 350 German cities, including the 25 largest cities. We currently have 26,781 sites that are directly connected to this network.

Revenue for business access has been increasing by 4.6% to €283.2 million. That’s a nice growth. The EBITDA has increased by 1.9% to €78.7 million. This result includes startup costs for two new business areas at 1&1 Versatel. One is the expansion of 5G, the connection of the antennas for 1&1 where we connect via glass fiber, and this is repaid through 1&1 Leases, and secondly, the expansion of commercial areas. We’re bringing glass fiber into commercial areas and then gain new customers in these commercial areas to amortize this expense. If we leave these two new business areas out of it, the growth would have been 6.9% EBITDA growth. I think that’s a nice number in this business area.

Let’s continue with applications, consumer applications. We have GMX, WEB.DE and mail.com. We’re developing from an email provider to a complete provider for personal communication. In our first half of the year or in the first half of the year, we had 41.66 million consumers. That’s 1.07 million less than in the previous year. Here you can see a comparison, not with the first half of the year, but at the end of 2023, 31st of December.

We have seasonal fluctuations in our customer numbers. We always see them, but we also have higher security requirements and therefore some accounts have been excluded that were used for SPAM, for example, that we didn’t want to service. 37.7 — 38.75 million free accounts that we’re servicing through advertisement. We also have 2.91 million pay accounts that pay for our services. That’s 110,000 more than by the end of last year.

In this segment, we were able to increase revenue by 13.6% to €144.4 million. EBITDA increased even further by 16.4% to €53.9 million. Those are numbers that we’re very happy with. EBITDA margin is now at 37.3%, and we will not be able to increase this significantly.

We said it at the beginning of the year and also within the scope of our last conference, we are seeing good growth this year, but we want to use this for staff ramp-up and for new applications. This is due to happen in the second half of the year. So you will see revenue growth in the second half of the year, but we will practically have no EBITDA growth depending on the costs because we will invest this profitability into further growth.

Finally, business applications; IONOS is also a listed company, is a digitalization partner for freelancers and small and medium-sized enterprises and cloud enabler. It operates in 15 European countries as well as in the U.S., Canada, and Mexico, so North America. We have a broad product portfolio and we’re servicing 9.52 million customer contracts; 4.91 million abroad and 4.61 million in Germany. So we had a growth overall of 130,000 contracts.

Revenue has increased by 6.1% due to customer growth, due to better up and cross-selling, but we also have a counter effect. Our aftermarket revenues have not increased in the first half of the year. They have decreased by €18.8 million. That’s due to phasing effects connected to a new product launch.

Aftermarket is not our core business. We’re also doing it on the side because it’s simply a result of having a lot of connections to domain owners, but it’s a low-margin business. If we deduct it and if we only focus on our core business, so on our applications, we would have had a growth — a revenue growth of 11.2%.

EBITDA increased by 7.9%; could have been more, but we had some marketing expenses, €8.9 million more in the first half of the year than in the first half of the previous year. We have a lower EBITDA in our aftermarket business. Like I said, we have a decreasing revenue. If we deducted this, we would have had in our core business, so without our aftermarket business, we would have had an EBITDA growth of 12.1%.

Maybe just one more thing on the aftermarket business. Management expects that in the second half of the year, we’ll see growth in our aftermarket business, and we see already in July that this is starting. We surpassed the previous year. So I think this phasing is now taking effect. The new product is taking effect. So I think we will see a nice development in the second half of the year.

See, an overview here on the overall company; 330,000 new customer contracts amounting to 28.78 million contracts; EBITDA 1% less; EBIT, due to the depreciations on investments, decreased by 14.7%, amounting to €347.4 million. EBITDA includes a startup cost for the mobile network that I mentioned earlier. They are €70 million higher than in the previous year. If you deducted this, you’d see that the EBITDA increased by 9%.

So if you take this investment out of it, the EBITDA grew by 9% in the overall group. On top of that, included in the EBIT, depreciations on investments, they increased due to the ramp-up of mobile services in our mobile network because we’re making more investments into our mobile network. And then in our EPS, we have a lower equity result due to Tele Columbus, and we have higher interest rates. And these higher interest rates have an impact on our financial results.

What’s next this year? Last week, we adjusted our forecast revenue is no longer at €6.5 billion, but €6.4 billion because in consumer access, we have lower revenues, and that is due to hardware. So it is a low-margin business, but revenues nevertheless, and also lower aftermarket revenues for business applications, again, low-margin business, but revenues nevertheless.

And that leads to slightly lower EBITDA, €1.38 billion, or excluding the out-of-period expenses, it would be at €1.39 billion. We used to expect €1.42 billion, which is still significantly above the previous year where the figure was at €1.3 billion.

EBITDA, slightly lower margin because of consumer access, hardware, and business applications with the aftermarket business, but also slightly lower EBITDA because of lower service revenues with 1&1, which is the consequence of the mobile network failure and also the out-of-period expenses.

Cash CapEx, 15% to 25% above the previous year’s figure. We used to assume 10% to 20%, and that is due to the higher inventory of network components that were previously stocked by expansion partners. So that’s a phasing effect. We do need these components this year and next year, but we are taking them into our inventories this year. Okay. That’s it from my side on the business development and the forecast.

And with that, I would hand over to Mr. Hartings who would give you the details on the first half of the year.

Ralf Hartings

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Dommermuth. And a warm welcome also from me to the presentation of our figures for the first half of the year 2024.

I am going to present the most important KPIs on a group level. So the contract figures and the P&L figures, we can skip them. We have only listed them for you in order to be complete, but Mr. Dommermuth has already given you a very comprehensive overview.

So let’s move on to the cash flow. Despite the lower group EBITDA, cash flow from operating activities rose from €512.6 million in the previous year to €556.9 million in the first half of the year 2024. Net cash provided by operating activities was reduced from €237.2 million to €175.1 million. This was due to the reduction of trade liabilities that’s a phasing effect from the fourth quarter of 2023, amounting to €104.3 million.

Cash flow from investing activities improved from €300.5 million to €280.9 million, and that is based on lower CapEx of €284.3 million. In the previous year, it was €301.3 million. Cash flow from financing activities increased depending on higher borrowing from €74.8 million in 2023 to €115.4 million.

Let’s have a look at the next slide in order to dive into the cash flow in detail. So the free cash flow bridge, the basis for it is the EBITDA, €661.6 million. And then you can see the highest items when coming to the free cash flow. So first of all, CapEx, €281 million, that is due to the investments in the expansion of the mobile and optic fiber networks.

Contingent payment to Deutsche Telekom, €263 million, and taxes, €156 million. Phasing effects amounted to €104.3 million from the fourth quarter of 2023, and working capital of €36.6 million. So overall, we arrive at a free cash flow of €105.8 million or rather minus €185.8 million after €80 million in leasing.

Now let’s look at the balance sheet. The balance sheet total increased from €11.246 billion by €280 million to €11.527 billion. Main drivers on the asset side were the increase in property, plant and equipment and intangible assets, €250 million roughly, and that’s a consequence of investments and also the increase in inventories and deferred expenses as a consequence of increased leasings and also the services by other providers’ telecom contingency contracts. We had lower financial investments and also the impairment of €170.5 million in this context and also the worst proportionate result of Tele Columbus.

On the liabilities side, equity decreased by €102 million roughly, and we can see that from the group income of the first half year and dividend payments, and liabilities towards credit institutions increased by €370 million. Equity ratio, 2.3 percentage points lower to 47.3%. Net liabilities amounted to €2.794 billion.

Okay. And that brings me to the end of my part, and we’re happy to receive your questions.

Question-and-Answer Session

A – Dominic Grossmann

Yes. Okay. Let’s come back to the presentation. We will start with the Q&A, and please wait for the microphone, if you want to ask a question. Tell us your name and your company and then ask away. So feel free to go. Karsten Oblinger in the first row here.

Karsten Oblinger

Yes. Karsten Oblinger of DZ Bank. So one question on the topic that keeps popping up, the group structure going forward. Last year, there were some speculations about, well, distributing the shares in IONOS or selling the consumer applications. Are there any new ideas, new conclusions on this? That’s my first question. And second one, looking at the share price and looking at value creation for shareholders, well, I think a share buyback program might be a good idea. What’s your take on that?

Ralph Dommermuth

Okay. So you have mentioned there were rumors, some discussions with regards to the shares in IONOS. Well, it was discussed here in the room. Right? Well, there was a question on it and we clearly stated that we don’t have any plans for this and it hasn’t changed.

Share buyback, yes, I agree. So that’s of course something that immediately comes to your mind when looking at the situation, but we have to be mindful. We have to keep the headroom and our credit lines in mind. And I think the headroom amounts to around €500 million, which we are keeping. So that’s more than we need, but we do want to keep this headroom really. So I’m not going to say we’re never going to do it. It’s always a question of weighing pros and cons, and also the overall debt ratio plays a role.

Today we’re in a situation where we believe that next year we will not have to purchase frequencies. So there won’t be any auction next year, but you can only be 100% certain once the federal network agency has published their conditions. So if we increased our debt ratio and then we would be informed about an auction, we would no longer have any firepower.

So that is something we are trying to weigh against each other, maintaining headroom and maintaining debt low. So it’s usually 2.5 points EBITDA, but once we realize that we do need funds for an auction, then actually it would be blocking us. But yes, you are of course right stating that at this price, you would actually need to think about a share buyback. So once we know that there won’t be an auction, then we will think about that. Thank you.

Dominic Grossmann

Yes. In the first row.

Volker Glaser

Volker Glaser of MPPM. A follow-up question on the share buyback. You have around 10% of your own shares. So before you think about a share buyback program, what will happen to those shares actually?

Ralph Dommermuth

Nothing will happen. Our company has already bought back a lot of shares. 252 million shares is what we had circulating in the top situation, and now we are standing at 172.8 million once we deduct our own shares. So 80 million have been bought back already. And we also keep a part of the shares we buy back as treasury shares. They are not entitled to dividends and don’t come with votes. So it’s as if they didn’t exist really, but they allow us to have programs for employees. We can pay them in cash or in shares, and we could implement a capital increase tomorrow if — without having new shares admitted if the situation demands for it.

So it’s not very likely for it to happen, but as it doesn’t cost us any money to keep these shares and it doesn’t cost shareholders any money, we keep those shares as treasury shares. I mean, we can of course remove them via a simple board decision, but if tomorrow we’re in a situation where we need these shares, we would have to create them. So that’s why we stick to them. They don’t have any impact on the dividend, on voting rights et cetera. So it doesn’t have any impact on shareholders.

Volker Glaser

Of course, all of that is true, but maybe that’s also the reason why you don’t set up a new share buyback program.

Ralph Dommermuth

Well, last year we had a share buyback program, and we signed a paper in the Board to purchase those shares, and then the notification was sent to the market. So there’s nothing keeping us from it.

Volker Glaser

Okay. Next topic would be consumer applications. You mentioned that the overall expectation is more than €100 million EBITDA. I think that’s unchanged, but you also made some remarks on it, on investments to be made. And I would be interested in the medium-term outlook. So where do you see potential here?

Ralph Dommermuth

Well, I can’t present you with a medium-term planning for the consumer applications business, but I can tell you that it’s going really well. You can see that looking at the revenue figures. We still have a couple of ideas in order to make the product better and more modern, but first of all, we need a couple of millions for new employees, which we are spending now. And yes, EBITDA, I think it will be beyond €100 million this year.

And something else that might be interesting is that in consumer applications, it’s not only EBITDA, but also EBIT and EBT, which is more or less the same. So as we are leasing our service, we are not capital-bound.

So the service can be seen in the P&L. We are also renting the offices, the office space, and that’s why it’s really capital-light. So €100 million, that’s the profit for this year, and hopefully it will be more going forward, but I can’t really tell you what the plans are because, of course, if we don’t manage to deliver on it, then it would have really limit us, but there is potential.

Volker Glaser

Okay. What about the e-SIM usage? Any update on this?

Ralph Dommermuth

We want to introduce it in the fourth quarter. The portals for e-SIMs are distribution channels, we do recognize that, and many customers use applications on the mobile phone. I think it’s beyond 20 million, right? 25 million. Yes. 24 million, 25 million customers use the app, and we want to integrate an e-SIM function in the app and you will be able to activate the e-SIM in the app by pushing a button.

We do think there are business opportunities here because the app is already in place. So you don’t have to download it from the app store. You will be able to do it just by pushing a button, select a fee, and then you will be able to activate it immediately. Now, on the technical aspects, of course, there are still some discussions to be had, but I think in the fourth quarter, we will have a well-working solution.

Volker Glaser

Okay. Next question, artificial intelligence. Based on your portfolio, where do you think there are opportunities that might have a financial impact or where do you see risks with regard to individual business areas?

Ralph Dommermuth

Well, as of today, we mainly see opportunities, and that really applies to all of our business. Let me try to give you some examples; on the one hand, saving costs or increasing productivity. If someone works as an editor in our online department, they can do five as many articles as they used to write in the past.

So productivity increases enormously, or looking at chatbots. We do have chatbots which use artificial intelligence. At some point, they hand on the request to an agent, but first of all, customers talk to a chatbot, not to the agent, and that saves costs.

And I think it’s not a secret. We have thousands of call centers, external ones, internal ones, depending on the level of support. And first of all, AI will be able to answer emails fully. Nowadays they’re doing it partially, and at some point, they will be able to generate language as well, and that will reduce costs. So there are different areas where AI will really allow us to save money. These were only a couple of examples.

And there are areas where we can increase our business using AI. IONOS, for example, if you want to build a website. The website builder is already AI-enabled. You can just enter a couple of keywords and it will create your website, which is very comfortable for customers.

Of course, they can then adjust the website, but they have something to start with and that will be improved more and more over the next couple of years, or again, IONOS, they have an AI model hub. Here you can book AI solutions in the cloud and that is one of the main focus points we have in our cloud strategy.

So AI solutions, which are usually open-source solutions with a guaranteed quality and with updates will be made available as cloud applications. And this is additional potential for revenue really. So on the one hand, we will become more efficient just as other companies, and on the other hand, we also see additional business. So I don’t really see a downside for us. Maybe I’m overseeing something, but I don’t see it.

Volker Glaser

You will probably have made the calculations already in savings you can make. Do you want to share it with us?

Ralph Dommermuth

No, I haven’t made the calculations really. No, no, I haven’t done that. But of course, it’s clear it’ll be in the three-digit millions, I believe, if you think it all through. So it’ll be a considerable amount.

Volker Glaser

And last question from my side. Cash flow, CapEx on United Internet Group level, we already received the information on 1&1 level. So what’s the update on Versatel? Because I think that would be worth mentioning. And free cash flow development; Maybe Mr. Hartings, you can say something about the full-year expectations and CapEx, free cash flow over the next two years. Thank you.

Ralf Hartings

So CapEx guidance for the group, we had mentioned that, 15% to 25% more. So that’s what we’re calculating with. Free cash. Yes. So the ballpark will be just as we did it this first half of the year, and for the next year, the CapEx profile, based on 1&1, should go slightly down. That’s our current expectation.

By what amount, well, we haven’t published that yet, but we will definitely look at it. So 1&1 told us €600 million — €360 million without passive infrastructure. So maybe I can — yes, I think I already mentioned that, and Versatel also on a similar level as this year. So yes, those are the plans for it.

Volker Glaser

Okay. So free cash flow next year will be positive then or will it again be a year of transition?

Ralf Hartings

Yes. It is still a transition year because we need investments.

Camilio Azzouz

Thank you. Camilio Azzouz on the phone from Amber Capital. My first question is for Mr. Dommermuth. So you acquired a lot of shares in 2021 at €35 per share. The current level is obviously very attractive versus these previous purchases. So on a personal capacities there anything that’s preventing you from adding to your position? That’s my first question.

My second question is, obviously you have a looming negotiation on the leasing for the low-band spectrum, which could allow you to save a number around €1 billion. Should you achieve to save such a number? What would be the use of proceeds you would think of at the level of United Internet and in terms of capital allocation? And then my last point, apologies, it might be the translation, but it would be very helpful if Mr. Hartings can clarify exactly the one-on-one CapEx for next year. I am not sure I got the exact number. Thank you.

Ralph Dommermuth

If I understood you correctly, you said that for the low-band spectrum, if we don’t buy it, we have a CapEx saving. Is that — did I understand that correctly?

Camilio Azzouz

I believe the saving would be quite sizable on your budget, if you don’t have to go through auction. And so what would be the use of proceeds if you get that massive balance sheet flexibility?

Ralph Dommermuth

I can tell you that today. As I said, with a leverage of factor 2, we feel quite comfortable. If we don’t have any auction and there are any special opportunities, then it might make sense to increase our leverage, but if there are no special opportunities, I would start to deleverage. But we don’t have any specific plan to say. Even if we don’t have an auction next year, then we already know where we’ll allocate the non-existing money, so to say. Where we’ll allocate this additional money, there is no plan for that.

And then you said that, well, ’21, 2022, you bought stocks at €35. That’s right. That was quite a good deal considering today, but you asked me if we — or I would add further stocks to that. I would like to leave this unanswered because this is a private question. That has nothing to do with United Internet. I don’t want to limit myself, and on the other hand, I don’t want to give rise to any rumors for things that I’m not going to do anyway. So that’s why I’d like to leave it unanswered.

Ralf Hartings

Then the question for CapEx at 1&1, because there maybe were some issues with the translation. I’ll say it again. In 2024, CapEx guidance of 1&1 is €460 million. In 2025, CapEx will be €360 million without passive infrastructure. And if we weren’t able to find a partner, the range is €100 million to €150 million for potential passive infrastructure on top.

Dominic Grossmann

Are there any further questions? Hi, Glaser.

Volker Glaser

I do have another question. So the economy is quite challenging at the moment. Also, if you follow the daily news, what’s your current perspective? Also, looking at your business, will you remain resilient or do you see any implications looming?

Ralph Dommermuth

You’re right, it’s not looking very well. Our main market is Germany. With IONOS, we have a lot of business abroad, but still the core of the business is in Germany. What’s negative about our business, with our subscription model is that we cannot double it quickly, but it still remains stable because even if there is no economic growth, our customers will still need a smartphone, will still need an Internet connection, and will still need to communicate by email. That’s why we’re optimistic that we won’t be affected.

If we look back, we’ve never struggled even in years that were economically challenging. Yes, of course we’ve had some issues in marketing our portals and platforms, but generally speaking, we may be talking about 5 million less. But I don’t want to use that as an excuse If our business struggled. I am not going to tell you it was because of the general economic situation if our business segment is struggling. That’s why we’re quite optimistic.

Dominic Grossmann

Are there any further questions? To Karsten Oblinger again.

Karsten Oblinger

I have a follow-up question in regard to 1&1 mainly. You are a pioneer with the network expansion. Some things didn’t go according to plan. Well, okay, that’s not up to you, but I’d like to look at the — at other changes in the mobile network segment. What was most surprising to you?

Ralph Dommermuth

I don’t really remember what surprised me three years ago, but I can tell you what surprises me now. That’s the aggression in pricing that we’ve been seeing since last year November, December, specifically in the discount segment. Maybe you saw the Telefonica numbers. You see that they have a nice contract growth, but if you look at their service revenue, there hasn’t been any major changes.

And that means that the quality of customers in the mix have — the quality of the customers has decreased. So I have new customers, new contracts with a lower margin. I think there’s a similar development at Vodafone. There’s been a decline of customer contracts and a decline of service revenue. That did surprise me.

When it started last year, I’d say, towards the end of the year we thought, well, there was this CyberWeek, for example, everyone’s providing great discounts during the CyberWeek, but we saw prices where we said we’re not going to go along with this anymore, and the same goes for this year. We’re seeing prices that Vodafone offers through sub-brands or Telefonica offers through sub-brands or that they give to Aldi or Freenet, where I say, from my perspective, that’s unwarranted aggression.

In our margin development, you can also see up to now that we have 3.8% more service revenue in — at 1&1 and 11% more EBITDA. So our customers have become more valuable. Our development is going in the opposite direction, and we just have to see how long we can keep up this development, how long can we grow more in our margin than in our service revenue or customer contract figures or do we at some point have to react to this general development on the market.

Of course, we have some ideas, and of course we always try to protect our existing customers to not jeopardize our existing customers just to gain a couple of new customers, but we need to put a lot of thought into all of this. But it was surprising to me because I don’t see any benefit. What does it benefit Telefonica to have a couple of thousand more customers if I don’t have a higher service revenue at the end of it? That would be the mystery, a recent mystery that I’m dealing with. But I don’t remember what was surprising to me two, three years ago.

For example, Telefonica is providing 100 Mbit of speed to Aldi. So far, they always limited to 50 Mbit. And the market said in the discount area, okay, then I only have 50 Mbit and the 300 or 500 Mbit, I limited to the value or the premium customer. And now everyone is down to 300 Mbit at 5G. It’s down to regulation. That’s coming — going to come soon, but why do I turn 50 Mbit into 100 Mbit? There is no benefit.

Apart from that, everyone in the market will do 100 Mbit tomorrow, and that makes it even less attractive to buy value or premium products. So I don’t understand that. I simply don’t get it, but that’s what competition is like. If they are more aggressive, then — well, or if they offer better offers, then of course it’s better for the consumers, even though they won’t earn more in the end. Thank you.

Dominic Grossmann

All right. I don’t see any further questions at the moment. Then I’d like to thank you for your attention and your questions. Feel free to stay for a cup of coffee. I’d like to conclude the conference. Have a safe trip home. Stay safe. Thank you. Goodbye.